Busting outsourcing myths
Last updated August 28, 2019
Just The Tips podcast
I am being interviewed on the Just The Tips podcast. This is hosted by James Friel and Dean Holland who are relatively big personalities in the Internet marketing space. On this podcast I explore or share my business journey with them and then, of course, we get into outsourcing pretty quick because that’s what I love talking about. So I hope you enjoy this and learn even a little bit more about outsourcing.
Derek Gallimore: Welcome to the Outsource Accelerator podcast. This is a short format podcast where we explore business and outsourcing mastery. My name is Derek Gallimore and I am really excited to bring you the leading podcast in outsourcing.
Derek Gallimore: Welcome back everybody. This is episode number 245 today. The table is being turned again and I am being interviewed on the Just the tips podcast. This is hosted by James P. Friel and Dean Holland who are relatively big personalities in the Internet marketing space. So on this podcast I explore or share my business journey with them and then of course we get into outsourcing pretty quick because that’s what I love talking about. So I hope you enjoy this and learn even a little bit more about outsourcing. if you want any of the shownotes, it’s go to outsourceaccelerator.com/245 enjoy
James & Dean: Hi, I’m James P Friel and I’m Dean Holland. It’s time to fasten your seatbelts, boys and girls. That’s right. If you’re an entrepreneur who’s wanting to take your business to the next level and have a bit of fun while getting cutting edge advice on your business, marketing and sales, welcome to Just the tips, arguably the best podcast in the entire world. I guess that’s good, right? Yup. That’s good. Take all right. That was easy. Yeah, it was the easiest thing we did all day.
James: Hey, what’s up everybody? Welcome to another episode of Just the tips this is your host, James P Friel I’m very excited that you guys are here with us today. I’ve got a cool show that I think will be really valuable to a lot of the entrepreneurs out there looking to, you know, get, get things off of their plate and grow and scale their business in a way that doesn’t cause them feeling like they’re going to be burned out. but before we get into the meat and potatoes, as it were of today’s show, I have to introduce my cohost, the one, the only, the bearded wonder from the United Kingdom. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Dean Holland.
Dean: Hey, how you doing, Mr. James?
James: Good. Yeah, I’m good. I think, I don’t know what I like more like just announcing you or hearing how excited you get when I announced.
Dean: Here is like the highlight of my week. People just ignore me and say brief moment. I feel special.
James: Well you are. You’re very, you’re very special part of this show. Awesome. Well we got a, we got a really cool show lined up. Derek Gallimore. How are you today? Welcome to the show man.
Derek Gallimore: Hi James. Hi Dean. Thank you so much. Super excited to be here.
James: Yeah, it’s good to have you. So, so you are all about outsourcing. You’ve been an entrepreneur for a really long time. you know, bootstrap businesses, seen them collapse, built the built new ones, like all this stuff. You’ve got some battle scars, don’t you?
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve been in business about 20 years and I’ve been through all of the full range of the highs and lows of entrepreneurship, so I can definitely attest to all of that.
James: What’s a w what would you say is the highest high that you’ve experienced as an entrepreneur so far? Nice. Yeah. Coming out strong.
Derek Gallimore: Well, you know, I would say she, just thinking about that today, it, it’s a little bit like a, a sport, so nothing is, it’s just some wins, you know, when you win, when you win a deal or you get a property, you know, I, I when I was 24, I started buying properties, property development and then property investment and yeah, some of the bigger deals was just electrifying. How exciting it was when you, you know, finally made all the pieces come together, and you were able to purchase this property or you’re finally signed on the bottom line or all sold that property again, you know, kind of having those wins is really quite electrifying, quite exhilarating. So, yeah, I had my fair share of those.
James: Is there one that stands out in particular?
Derek Gallimore: Well, I mean, I, I, funnily enough I actually just recalled that this morning like in about 2007 I bought my biggest property, which was pretty big for me, as about a 27 year old. It was about a $3 million property in, in London. And you know, essentially about a month before the entire world crashed basically, which was, the financial crisis in about 2008. And, I’m not sure if dean can remember, but there was the run on northern rock where everyone was on TV waiting outside, northern rock to get their money out. and I literally bought that property about a month before that was about 18 months in the making, trying to have all those pieces come together. Throughout that period there was a kind of highs and lows when you would get accepted or rejected or you know, at a certain point you go through or then at certain point it would get rejected. so little highs and lows and then you finally bought this thing and it was, it was incredible. It was elation and it was all on the game was then following along. you know, and then again, there’s highs and lows after the hat. The whole kind of economic system collapses around. Yeah.
Dean: You had your greatest high and greatest is low or within a short period.
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, for sure. You know, I mean, I was safe, the building was safe, but it certainly did rock things. And, certainly there was a lot to be concerned about in 2008 when the whole, financial system was and was in crisis.
James: Right. So was that the catalyst that kind of got you focused on other things besides property and real estate or you’re already running other companies besides property investments and stuff like that?
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, it was a major catalyst then, I was at that stage doing property investing, landlording, you know, that sort of thing. And, then in 2008, you could no longer refinance and get high leverage and buying new properties. So I certainly had to change what I was doing and I segue into a service departments or corporate housing. and because of that, you know, I couldn’t buy it, but there were the synergies there. And then within about eight years, I had built a portfolio of about 250 properties in central London and, and kind of successfully segue then in to my second business, which was the corporate housing.
James: Right, right. Awesome. So how did you get, how did you get into what you’re doing now, which is, you know, outsourcing services and teaching people how to leverage outsourcing to help them grow their business? Like how did that happen?
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, so I, you know, I’m a scratching my own itch as they say. In about 2011, I already had this corporate housing and it was a 24/7 business because you had people in the house and you needed customer support. And, I realized that it wasn’t accessible in the UK affordably, so someone suggest, so I went to the Philippines and tried outsourcing. That was 2011. and I never looked back and I tried with one customer service person within about a 36 months, I had about 40 or 50 staff in the Philippines. and it started with customer service and sales. But eventually I’d built the team up to about 70 people here in Manila where they were doing everything from sales to marketing to a web design, you know, all of the full gambit of operations, and even strategy in Manila. So that was my foray into outsourcing and then I just saw the, the power of outsourcing effectively because, you know, any small or medium size business can save 70 to 80% on their staffing costs and have an incredible human resource here in the Philippines. assisting with their business growth.
James: Yeah. Well I know from personal experience, I had a team in the Philippines for quite a while and, the people that were amazing, you know, there’s, there’s obviously like advantages and then pitfalls that you gotta be careful for. What, what would you say are the biggest things that are the biggest myths that people believe about outsourcing?
Derek Gallimore: Ooh, there’s a lot of those I would say. I mean, they’re amazing people. I think too many people have read the four hour work week now. It’s great to bring it to, to interpret people’s awareness. but it isn’t necessarily the, the one and only Bible to, you know, how to employ people and how to outsource. But it’s a great guide. I think one of the myths is, you know, people only think it’s quite extreme as quite polarized. People either think that outsourcing is going to go wrong, they’re going to steal your id, they’re going to do something really bad. Or the other extreme is, you know, they want to pay $2 an hour. but they want a fully qualified marketers, sales person, they want them to build their own website and they don’t want to do any training or, sort of assistance with that. So they, they sort of expect them to be slightly superhuman at $2 an hour or they expect them to kind of steal their ideas. Very, very polarized usually.
James: Right. So the, so the, the truth must be somewhere in between. So what, what’s been your experience with the right way to outsource something? Like let’s say, you know, people who are listening to show are running businesses or entrepreneurs making things happen and they’re like, okay, I’m going to give, I’m going to give this a shot. What’s the right way to do it?
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the easiest way is to think that no different to just general employment. and that means, you know, there is the whole gambit of people here, a into country of 100 million people in the Philippines. There’s 650,000 university graduates every year. and there is every profession under the sun in Manila. Manila is a town of 22 million people and the vast majority of speak, people speak English better than, than I do really just treat it like employment, whatever job description you are trying to fill, you can fill that equally as well. In the Philippines, in Manila, there are incredibly sophisticated outsourcing operations here that can assist you with that process. So it’s effectively finding a good person for that job description. And the Cherry on the top is that you can save somewhere between 70 and 90% on that salary, which enables you to hire a little bit quicker, hire a few more people, and help build your business without the daunting concerns and overheads of hiring people in, in the west of your own home town.
James: And what about, and what about managing them once? So, so is it, you know, do you think this is good for people who just want some, you know, short term projects they are looking for, you know, somebody on their team for a long period of time. you know, w are there any sort of guidelines in terms of, if I’m thinking about outsourcing in the Philippines in particular, are there certain types of roles that it’s great for in certain ones where I should say, you know, maybe that’s just not the right move here.
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it depends on your business. There’s a huge range of jobs that can easily be done. You know, Philippines is fantastic now for accounting, bookkeeping, a lot of the social media and content management, a lot of content writing. a lot of sort of lead generation sales, customer service, any sort of support role. Also getting your websites built. you know, the Philippines is leading the way now in terms of a lot of the creatives. So that’s film editing, graphics, a lot of the gaming, you know, whether it’s animation, it’s really leading the world in terms of those things. A lot of the Hollywood movies that post edited here in the Philippines now, and there’s a lot of the animated movies are being made from scratch in the Philippines. So it really is limited to your imagination. We have clients that are, you know, optimizing Danish satellite dishes for the mobile, frequency they’re analyzing them and then, tweaking the satellite dishes in space from Manila. and we’ll you quickly have, you know, highly trained naval sea captains sitting in Manila steering oil tankers out in the ocean from an office desk in Manila. so it’s really limited by your imagination,
James: Dean, that reminds me of what you do in your office about the satellite reorientation.
Dean: I was just taking out the window doing a similar thing just here in my office. But you know, you know, something that I did just love that you said Derek was, was in reply to one of the questions there. And that was really just a treat, go into the, the outsourcing space with the same regard that you would any other employee. Cause then that, that rings really true with me. So my, my first ever experience of outsourcing many, many, many years ago now when I was younger and dumber than I even am today was I felt right. I need a virtual assistant, I’m going to offload all this stuff and life’s going to be so much more amazing now. And I looked for this person with all these different skills and could do all these different things.
Dean: And I thought that from the moment that person begins, all of a sudden like everything’s offloaded and I can just go about my day and never think about it anymore. and that was the stupidest approach ever. I just, for some strange reason you, you would never think that if I employed somebody here in the office, I would know, well, there’s going to be a period of time here where I’m going to have to train them and show them how we do things, why we do it in that way, and go through a training process. But for some dumb reason going into a virtual assistant role with somebody in the Philippines, I didn’t even look at it that way. So yeah, that really hits, hits a chord with what you just said.
Derek Gallimore: It happens all too often and unfortunately I think that then people are quick to you know, sort of blame outsourcing as a concept if it doesn’t work. And you know, often, you know, we’re not blaming anyone or anything, but often it’s maybe just, the client itself themselves where they just need to spend a little bit more time on their processes, mapping out the thoughts and ideas that are in their head getting onto paper so that it can be transferred over to their new team members.
Dean: Yeah, definitely. I remember coming away from that thinking, oh, outsourcing is painful, I might as well just do it myself. But actually in hindsight now of course looking back, it was, it was totally on me. And yeah, some key lessons learned, the whole
Derek Gallimore: Delegation thing, isn’t it? I think we all struggle with that as, as business owners and entrepreneurs, regardless of whether you’re outsourcing overseas or whether it’s just, you know, getting those jobs over to someone, in your own office. So it’s sung that we’re all struggling with every day.
James: Well, I told, I totally agree. And you know, one of the things I talk about a lot is you gotta be clear on the role that you’re trying to fill and what does success look like for in that role. And you know, it’s unfair to anybody that you’re hiring, whether they’re in the office or outsource in the Philippines or anywhere else. If you just expect them to come in and kind of be mind readers and know what to do and everything, it’s just, you know, I think that’s like management malpractice.
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, for sure. And you know, it’s an art isn’t it? You know, I’ve been managing people for 20 years and it’s, you can always improve and there’s obviously thousands of books about how to best manage and manage teams and the psychology behind it. And so, yeah, it’s certainly a big, big subject that I’m certainly, I’m no expert in down south, but always trying to improve.
James: So. Okay. So let’s say we, we, you know, you know, you’re bought into the idea of outsourcing and possibly the idea of outsourcing in the Philippines. How do you find the people, like, what’s the best way to do that?
Derek Gallimore: Well, that’s why we’re here, James. So effectively, you know, there is the, there’s sort of two models. There’s the upwork, there’s the freelancer, which is the kind of Tim Ferris, which is great, but that really serves a need in terms of project work, in terms of part time people, in terms of freelancer. if you want to professionalize, if you want to get professionalized outsourcing services, then there’s this whole other part of the market which is kind of called outsourcing or, BPOs, which is business process outsourcing. and there are about 700 professionalized companies in the Philippines. We list all of them on our website. they employee an aggregate of about 1.2 million people. The bigger firms employ about quarter of a million people across, you know, dozens of countries in the world. and they are highly professionalized, professional services firms effectively. And you know, you can look at them really as staff augmentation, services and you can go along to them with your needs.
Derek Gallimore: And depending on the, the, the kind of service blend that they offer, they can basically offer you the facilities, the HR, the recruitment, the account management, the oversight of the staff member. They bring on your, staff requirements. They can help train them up, give them the facilities and oversight obviously, and then, and then, you know, you’d get work. And usually we recommend, regardless of how big or small people are, you start with one or two people. You, you know, get the foundations right, you get comfortable with the people in the process. And then it’s just a super, super exciting. And like we were talking about before, it’s an exciting realization when people realize, you know, there’s these incredible resources out there. and you can now just grow this machine that you’ve built. But, yeah, it’s exciting.
James: So was so, I mean, obvious maybe you’re a little book biased on this because this is the business that you’re in, but do you think that is a better move for most people getting in touch with one of these, one of these BPOs or one of these recruiting agencies that really helps you find, you know, identify the role that you’re looking for? Hire the right person, the show, especially with like the, the distance and stuff like that.
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it’s upwork and freelancers is kind of good. I say that I’m very guarded and, and I actually know the founders of freelancer and you know, they’re fantastic, but it’s a little bit like if you want a lawyer, you would want to go down to Wall Street and find a reputable firm to help you out. They don’t need to be big or the biggest bit reputable. and whereas freelancer on upwork is a little bit like going to central park and scratching around in the bushes looking for a guy kind of willing to help you out. You know,
James: It’s actually how I found Dean just so don’t knock that too much. Every now and then you win.
Derek Gallimore: So, you know, it’s, it’s yeah, it’s a world of difference away and you know, you realize that when people are in proper facilities, they have to turn up 9 to 5. They’re not working from, from home, you know, God knows where. and it’s a proper professionalized environment, then your returns are 10 x. and you’re still including all of these professionalized services and environment. You’re still saving, you know, 70, 75% on your total staffing costs. So it’s incredible.
James: So even with going through a firm, even with like all of the infrastructure that they need to support in order to make their own business work, you’re still saving 70, 80%.
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, absolutely. You know, to get sort of a two to three year postgraduate, that’s obviously been in the workforce said maybe mid twenties, including all fees, including all government contributions, taxes, the, the hardware, the environment you’re looking at around about, maybe 1200 US per month, all in, you know, and this is within professionalize the environment. So, generally you’re looking to save 5 x.
James: That’s awesome. So one of the, one of the things that I think, might deter people is this whole time zone thing, right? You guys are, you know, for, for us here in the US or even Dean, you know, in the UK, the time zone, could potentially be a challenge. How do you, how do you deal with that? Is it an issue? Like when is it an issue? How do you, you know, kind of still feel like you’ve got a team member? That was the question for you, Dean.
Derek Gallimore: I mean, time zones are a thing, aren’t we? I mean, the three of us were sitting in three very distinct time zones, you know, it’s about whatever it is, 11:30 PM for me here. and the world is now very used to that. The Philippines is unfortunately about 12 hours, time difference from the US you can’t literally get any further. but the entire industry was built on servicing the US needs. So people here are super used to work night shift working on 24/7 rotating shifts. it’s, it’s just so, so commonplace in that essentially how and why I started my outsourcing, was because I needed a 24/7 shift cover and it was just not achievable within London. and in the Philippines, people jump at the opportunity. People actually enjoy working night shift here.
James: So, so there’s a, there’s a large group of people who will work the night shift there so that we have daytime access.
Derek Gallimore: Yeah. Crazy. There, there a home sort of like business parks in Manila in the Philippines that are just lit up throughout the night. shifts come on, go off, you know, at 4:00 AM in the morning, you can have these almost little cities that are just alive with people that Starbucks or like McDonald’s are alive, the coffee shops alive because it’s just people’s normal work day. And it’s really, really incredible to come here. I suggest you just hang out at four, 4:00 AM in the morning on a Tuesday morning and you’ll see you can, everyone’s just hanging out and it’s, it’s, it’s crazy.
James: That’s amazing. So, so you’re saying that shouldn’t be an issue when done properly?
Derek Gallimore: Absolutely. Yeah. You just, you know, if you are in the US or in the UK or wherever, you are, just set expectations from the start saying, you know, I expect you to be here my office hours or split shift or you know, you do or don’t work weekends or just set expectations. And that is then the basis on which you hire those people.
James: Yeah. Can I admit something funny to you? Maybe a little bit embarrassing you guys. I am, I feel bad to ask people to work the night shift for me.
Derek Gallimore: Yeah.
James: As like, is that common or am I, I’m like, oh, I feel so awful that you have to stay awake all night because I need you to do things.
Derek Gallimore: It’s more, it’s far more. No, I realized here, you know, and that’s why it’s good to have people in a facility instead of at home where there are no doubt sitting in the dark in sort of less than kind of ideal environments. whereas if it’s throughout the night and they’re sitting with another sort of 500 people doing the same thing, and they’d go to the tea room and they’re having fun with their friends, then it’s very, very normalized over here.
James: Yeah, I get it. And so, like in these environments, how do you secure and protect your, you know, your intellectual property?
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that’s a great question. again, these people have been doing it 25 years. They have some of the biggest names, brand names, firms in the world as clients. You know, whether that’s a, the US health insurance companies, whether it’s US health providers, finance, insurance, and there’s a lot of compliance regulations now that are very standardized here in the Philippines. If it’s anything to do with any sort of US patient, healthcare health information, then there’s a HIPAA compliance protocols. and you know, some of these, if, if they need to be compliant with that in some of the facilities are, you know, almost like Ben Volts, people contact mobile phones and the space in there, all the computers are sort of locked down. so, you know, they’re very strong, safe environments and all compliant. But just for the normal Joe hiring someone, you don’t, you will just literally build a relationship with your people as you would in the US you know, and there really is no green tech exposure to any security risks or data losses. then there is, when working with your standard team, you know, they, they effectively just become your team. So the risks are equivalent to someone nick in your stuff sitting in New York. Hmm.
Dean: Yeah. Very cool. And how about, another thing that I know might be on people’s mind if they’ve, if they’re only just looking at outsourcing virtually, like what, what measures are there or what procedures are in place for like the peace of mind side of things as in, so we as a company, not too long ago had an had, an experience where somebody that was virtual, it came to light that they were perhaps only working maybe like one or two hours a day. and we hadn’t been aware of that for a long time. what sort of measures are in place, if any, or what can people do for that peace of mind to know that if I’ve got somebody that’s not in front of me or in the office with me and they’re supposed to be working for like eight hours a day, how do I know that is actually,
James: Can I compliment you on the quality of your question, Dean?
Dean: You can indeed.
Derek Gallimore: Great question. So yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s again, just like managing any other people and it’s about having good sets of deliverables. It’s about checking in with those people, you know, again, different management books so you can have weekly kind of catch out to maybe have morning meetings, you saying, what are we going to get done today? it’s within project management. but equally, you know, it’s just kind of knowing what people are up to and it really varies no different to anyone else sitting in any office in any other town. You know, you can have receptionists that are filing their nails all day, every day. and maybe that’s okay. Maybe it’s not. you know, again, this is why if people are turning up to a professionalized environment, there’s an account manager there, there’s sort of friends and colleagues there, then it’s just really, it’s sort of in congruent then if they’re not working.
Derek Gallimore: Whereas, you know, a lot, you hear a lot of these stories on upwork and freelancer and you know, people that are sort of into this gig economy where they’re just taking on more and more gigs. There’s low accountability there. They’re about working the kind of system, taking it much advantage of it as they can. and it just starts in that spiraling thing. I say to people, I give advice to people if they’re in those industries where there’s a potential for them also to be freelancing. Just be aware of those things. You know, if they’re doing video editing or if they’re doing creatives or social media management, just be aware that these sort of roles, especially if you have them working from home, it’s, it’s, there’s a potential that people can be sort of juggling two or three jobs. you know, and, and it’s really just about setting the bright foundations from the start and again, going into professionalized environments because it just doesn’t happen there. It would just be kind of weird.
James: But you’re, but you’re saying that in these environments it’s way less likely to have something like that happen.
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, absolutely. And I just sort of encouraged people to think how would it happen at home? You know, you walk into these offices at home, you realize, you know, the, the main thing that is holding people together is the culture is they’re buying into what they’re heading towards. It’s the shared vision of the company. And you know, if you’re in, I don’t know, central London around the water cooler in the morning, you’ve got your sort of 20 workmates, you’re talking about work, you’ve got component deliverables. I couldn’t imagine one of those people, going into their desk and then starting six hours working for someone else. It just wouldn’t happen at home. and I equally can’t imagine it happening in the Philippines. you know, but if you sort of get a part time freelance freelancer, then of course, yeah, it can happen because they’re, they’re into jaggling things.
James: Right, right. That makes sense. so tell, tell us a little bit about your, your particular, you know, way that you’ve done this and your business over there.
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So it’s a, yeah, it’s Outsource Accelerator. We are like the TripAdvisor of outsourcing. So you can go on our website, we’ve got about 5,000 pages of content. We also do podcasts. we have dozens of videos. and basically people can, it’s an environment where people can just learn about outsourcing, build their awareness of outsourcing. They can browse about 700 outsourcing suppliers. they can watch interviews with the founders or owners or executives, and just genuinely learn more about outsourcing. And then of course we can help, advise them without sourcing. We also do free brokerage where you can connect them with outsourcing suppliers according to their needs. and our fees are, from free. So, you know, it’s certainly incredible value and we’re just really about building awareness and, and basically encouraging more and more SMEs, small and medium size businesses to explore outsourcing for their business.
James: Awesome. That’s cool. Yeah. Sounds good. Dean, any, any, any thoughts from your side of the pond? We start wrapping things up here?
Dean: No, no, it’s been a, it’s been awesome. It’s been a, it’s been interesting listening to you cause I think, I’ve definitely made my fair few a fair share of mistakes in terms of outsourcing overseas and so it’s been great to get some insight and I’m definitely going to be checking out your website cause I think a few bad experiences that ultimately were my fault have probably held me off from doing more of this. And, yeah, speaking with you, Derek today, it’s made me think I need to read this stuff.
Derek Gallimore: Don’t give up Dean and it’s, you know, it’s about sort of improvement isn’t it? You know, and businesses is like a, like a muscle. Now we’re all just kind of working on improving and I think,
James: yeah, no kidding.
Dean: Yeah, absolutely. And hopefully I can visit your site anyway cause I know with the a diverse array of skills over there that hopefully I can replace James.
James: Yeah. Maybe you can find another guy to give you a hard time in a podcast.
Derek Gallimore: Yeah. Maybe we need a new sanction podcasting.
James: Yeah, that’s right. Podcast cohost replacement.
Derek Gallimore: Future of outsourcing.
James: Yeah, that’s right. Well Derek, it’s awesome having you on the show. For those of you guys who want to check out all of the content and ah, advice and everything that Derek and his company have to offer, just go to outsourceaccelerator.com. That’s correct.
Derek Gallimore: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. outsourceaccelerator.com.
James: Yeah. Awesome. Good outsourceaccelerator.com. I’ve, I’ve been checking out the site both before the show and while we were talking, and there is a ton of great information there on how to set things up, right? How to find the right person, not make the mistakes. In fact, I think there’s a download that says, don’t be like Dean, do it the right way. which I think was very intuitive of you, Derek.
Derek Gallimore: I kinda, it was a James Friel and Dean Holland with Just the tips podcast. If you want any of the show notes, go to outsourceaccelerator.com/245. And as always, if you want to ask us anything, then just drop some email to [email protected] See you next time.